Podcast - Episode 2 - 25 Years of Experience With Yoga and Pregnancy Support
Interview with Jo Hogan
I chat with Newborn Mothers graduate Jo Hogan from Bella Mama. We discuss what it feels like to work as a postpartum doula and professional. At the core of this conversation, we explore how precious it is to nurture mothers in their postpartum and create a life doing work you love.
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About Jo
Jo Hogan from Bella Mama has been supporting pregnancy and postpartum for 25 years. Bella Mama is a holistic spa and wellness centre in New Zealand that specialises in pregnancy, birth and motherhood. Jo is a Massage Therapist, Pregnancy Yoga Teacher and Postpartum Doula. Jo’s vision is to create a beautiful space that nurtures and supports mothers, babies and their families during this important and special time of their lives. Her wish is that all mothers throughout the world are supported, honoured and cared for so that they can do the important work of nurturing and loving their children.
We explore the following questions:
How did you begin working with pregnant mothers?
Why did you start supporting women in postpartum as well?
What does your week look like as a doula?
Why were you able to overcome money blocks, build a successful business, get these beautiful clients and do the work you love?
Do you have any suggestions for people wondering whether being a postpartum doula or professional is for them?
Do you have any feedback from clients that you could share with us?
Do you have any advice you would give other doulas or people thinking about being doulas?
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Transcript
Julia Jones:
Today I'm interviewing a very experienced professional, Jo Hogan. Jo Hogan lives in Auckland, New Zealand and has been doing this kind of work for 25 years. She is a massage therapist who's done over 10,000 massages. She is also a pregnancy yoga teacher and more recently has noticed that there's this gap with the pregnant women that she's working with, they have a beautiful pregnancy, and they're really looking forward to the birth and planning for the birth. Then she was noticing that there was a real lack of postpartum support, and then that's when she stepped into that space and decided that she wanted to do something about it. She studied Newborn Mothers Collective with me and became a postpartum doula as well. I wanted to get the perspective of someone who's very experienced because a lot of people who are considering becoming a doula or midwife or in some capacity working with newborn mothers are wondering what does it actually look like? Jo, do you want to maybe introduce yourself a little bit more?
How did you begin working with pregnant mothers? (01:41)
Jo Hogan:
Absolutely. I have been working with pregnant and postpartum woman for probably about the last 12 or 13 years, I think. I'm a massage therapist originally and when I moved back to New Zealand from the UK, I started teaching pregnancy yoga, that's what happened, I was teaching a big group of pregnant girls yoga, and they were all sort wanting to come to me for massage because I had that training with prenatal massage as well. After a while I just thought, ‘Oh, I don't really want to work with anyone else. I just want to work with pregnant girls, that's my absolute love'. Then I realized that there was probably maybe a gap in the market for a specialist company who just particularly worked with that client group. So I set up a company called Bella Mama in Auckland in New Zealand.
Bella Mama has been going now for, as I said, 12 or 13 years. In fact, I know that because all the first babies that I worked with, all those first pregnant bellies that I massaged, all those kids have just started high school, which is really, really cool. I did that for the past few years. Then I think what happened was, it's very much in line with what you said is that you realize that you're working with all these beautiful pregnant women and they're really planning their pregnancies really well, and they're doing all the right things and they're eating well and going to yoga and having massages, et cetera.
It wasn't until I began to notice a theme, which was that I would see my clients all the way through pregnancy and I'd love looking after them and I'd educate them about birth and they'd go off and have a baby. Then I'd see them, or I wouldn't see them maybe for a few weeks or a few months, and I'd bump into them on the street or they'd come back for a postnatal massage, because I always encourage them to do that. I’d say, "Oh, how's it all going? You've got this beautiful baby" and they'd look at me and they'd say, "Oh, it's great." and then they burst into tears and they would cry because it hadn't been great. It had been really, really, really hard and miserable, and I just knew that how easily that could happen. But that's when I started investigating more about how to be able to support my clients after they'd had the babies. Massage at the clinic wasn't the ideal way of doing that, because quite often it was just too hard for them to come back for a massage with a newborn baby. That's when I started doing a little bit of investigation and that's when I came across your beautiful program.
How did you begin supporting women throughout their whole journey, not just in pregnancy? (04:18)
Julia Jones:
Once you decided to make that transition from supporting women before pregnancy to supporting them throughout the whole journey, what did you do? How did you figure out and how to actually do that?
Jo Hogan:
First of all, I did your amazing training, which I just adored every minute of, and as soon as I did your training and found your site, it was just like light bulb moment. I think I watched your three introductory videos that you did for the new mums and it just all made complete sense to me. Being a yoga teacher, the understanding of the Ayurvedic tradition around the postpartum and the way that they care for new mums in India, and of course in every other culture in the world just made so much sense. I quite often would see that in my yoga classes. I've got a group of women who from all different cultures quite often, and we'd go around the group and check in and I'd sort of say, "What's happening after the baby's born?" The Indian and the Chinese girls, they're like, "Nothing's happening, man, we're not going anywhere. We're staying in, we're being looked after. I've got grandma coming. I've got my mum coming." Those were the women who had this plan around what was going to happen afterwards and quite often were the ones that you would report back that they had had an easy postpartum or they'd be the ones that really prioritized postpartum care.
I remember one woman, Indian lady called me and said, "I want you to come to my house every day for 40 days to massage me." She was not a wealthy woman, they lived in a small flat, and her partner was a courier driver, I think, but she really, really valued that massage and had put money aside for it and had her mum there looking after her. That's sort of how it started happening.
Then once I'd done your training, I was full of the joys of it and lucky enough to be surrounded by a group of pregnant women that I could pass on this amazing knowledge to.
What does your week look like as a doula? (06:27)
Julia Jones:
I know a lot of my listeners are curious about becoming a doula or something similar, but they can't actually picture what that life's like. So tell me, what does your week look like as a doula?
Jo Hogan:
I sort of compartmentalize my week into a day or two of admin working for the admin for Bella Mama, a day of teaching, I do teach yoga classes and a shift or two of massage, and then at the moment, I'm sort of just taking on one or two doula clients a week. I tend to put aside either a morning or an afternoon to do my visits, quite often is an afternoon actually. So that means that I do something in the morning and then I will arrive at their house around about lunchtime, which is always the perfect time to cook lunch for them when I first walk in the door. Then I've got obviously my massage table with me. My packages that I've come up with have a range of different offerings, including the cooking and massage and one-on-one yoga, emotional support, those kind of things.
I'm noticing a definite theme though, which is food and massage is very popular. Those two things seem to be very popular. For example, I was at a client's house last week on the Wednesday, I've been going there every Wednesday afternoon, and I'll come in and we'll sit down for a chat for half an hour or so, so she can let me know what's going on for her, she had some sort of challenging issues around breastfeeding with her last baby, so she might want to talk through that and how things are going for this baby. Then I'll set up my massage table and put on some food for lunch. While the food is cooking, give her a lovely massage, maybe do a belly binding for her, and serve her lunch, pot around in the kitchen, maybe do a meal for later on in the day. I find that my visits tend to be around at the four-hour mark. It always seems to be naturally finishing around about four hours. I'm usually there, for example, from 12:00 till 4:00.
Julia Jones:
Yeah, that's lovely. I can see that both, from your perspective as a doula, that would be beautiful work to do and as a mother, I would just love that. That just sounds like the dream, doesn't it? To have someone to come and nurture you and care for you for a few hours, that would be beautiful for both of you.
Jo Hogan:
Yeah, I mean, it's my favorite afternoon's work. I get to make soup and cuddle babies and chat to beautiful women. The woman that I've worked with over the last couple of years have just been amazing, I've got to say, just so amazing and so inspiring. It's like I get so inspired by them that, and don't get me wrong, they have the challenges sometimes and that's what my job is to help support them through that, but I think there's a really good lesson here of choosing your target market carefully. Who are the women that you want to support? and being very specific about that because when you're very specific about that, you draw those kind of people to you and then your work is not like work, it's just hanging out with a beautiful friend for once a week and getting to cuddle her baby, but at the same time being of help and support and being very valued as well and that's amazing.
Why were you able to overcome money blocks, build a successful business, get these beautiful clients and do the work that you love doing? What are you doing that perhaps other people aren't figuring out? (10:32)
Julia Jones:
We're very lucky to be in the position to be doing work that we really love doing. But I know also there can be a flip side of that, that people then sometimes have some money blocks. How can I possibly charge for this work when I enjoy it so much? But you've managed to build successful business out of your work, so what is the difference, do you think? Why are you able to get these beautiful clients and do the work that you love doing that perhaps other people aren't figuring out?
Jo Hogan:
I think it's just that I think that, I've been self-employed for many years, and I definitely did have money blocks myself at stages in my life. I've got over those because I know that the work that I do and that we do is really valuable. I mean, in a way it's quite good for me because as a massage therapist, I charge a certain amount. I charge an hourly rate to be doing massages at the clinic, so I need to be charging about the same if I'm going out into the world to do doula work. I can't charge much less otherwise it's not worth it. I might as well still be working, doing massage. But I feel that the hourly rate that I charge is really worth it because I provide a huge amount of value for that.
I feel that if you give a hundred percent of yourself and you are available completely authentically with your mother when you are there with her, that work is really, really valuable. The knowledge that we have to impart, which basically is just giving permission to be with your baby, giving permission to rest, permission to eat well, permission to enjoy this incredible time and permission to understand incredible and difficult work that a new mother does, that has such a value in it, in my opinion. That's what I've heard back from my clients as well.
I do feel that the work is really, really valuable. I think when we understand our own value, I've also done a lot of training, I've done a lot of courses. I have a lot of resources as well, I think maybe that's a good tip for doulas working too. One of the things that I provide to my clients is I do it on Trello because I've fallen in love with Trello. You, I think introduced me. So creating really nice Trello board for them and putting a lot of resources on there as well and one of the clients that I've worked with recently, I found them a midwife because they couldn't find a good midwife, I found them a maternity nurse that they needed, I found them a physio, all those kinds of things because I have networks around the city, and those things are valuable as well.
Julia Jones:
Absolutely. You can save parents hours and hours of research and also mistakes. If they find that don't find the right care providers and they go to someone who doesn't really fit with their values, that can be huge disadvantage.
Jo Hogan:
True. You're right, there's heaps of different providers out there, isn't there? But finding the particular person for that client is, I mean, that particular client I was talking about, she wanted to have a water birth at a birthing center, but she could only find an obstetrician, who I just knew that there was no way she was going to get that birth, so finding her the right midwife was huge for them and they really appreciated it.
Julia Jones:
It's sort of like you see yourself in a way as being that one person who sees them through the whole journey from the moment that they book you when they're pregnant, you can help them through as one point of contact through all the different sort of things with referrals and village building.
Jo Hogan:
So my workshops, my classes, and the local resources for sure, I've got quite a good book library and I want to build up a baby-wearing sling library as well and things like that.
Do you have any suggestions for people wondering whether being a postpartum doula or professional is for them? (14:35)
Julia Jones:
If there's anyone listening to this who is either thinking of becoming a doula or maybe they're a pretty new doula and it's not working for them yet and they're feeling like they're going to give up and it's too hard, do you have any suggestions for people who were just wondering whether or not this is for them?
Jo Hogan:
Yeah, I do. I think that going back to what I was talking about before, to be really, really specific on the target market that you want to work with. The thing that I've noticed about this doula work, and I knew this already from doing my massage work, it's quite a high-end service for somebody. If you want to be able to charge a reasonable hourly rate so that you cover all your expenses and that you are still earning a decent amount of money that makes the work that you do worthwhile, then there is only a certain kind of person that can afford that and that's sometimes kind of hard to swallow. We all want to be able to help every mother that needs it.
But what I've really realized is that some of the women who are in the more higher socioeconomic areas and who are maybe quite high earning women who can afford to have a doula for example, are also the ones that really, really, really need it as well. Because they can be women who are more isolated, away from their families, they could have families overseas, for example. They don't have their mums around. Maybe they're working really, really hard and they don't have time and they struggle to relax and let go into the postpartum. So those women, if you are wanting to work with them, then they can not only afford your service, but they actually still really, really need it.
Julia Jones:
I love it. I often think one of these, a lot of people feel worried about this and it's definitely genuinely something we should consider, but we don't want our services to become super exclusive and they don't have to be extremely wealthy, but they have to be people who are ready to prioritize this and put some money aside and save up for it.
Jo Hogan:
That's the difference, isn't it? That's like my Indian girl who had the 40 massages over 40 days. She really prioritized that. So I think what I mean is that just really, if you work with people who are really open to your message and really valuing what you do, then they will appreciate you and they will put aside money to pay for this service. They'll also put aside money for a cleaner and maybe a babysitter and things like that. It's like you've often said, these are the kind of people that value services rather than stuff. Sometimes they've got the stuff too, of course. I'm like that in my life as well, I’D much rather spend money on somebody coming in cleaning my house now and then having designer clothes or a flash car. So it's those kinds of people that will value what you do.
Not everybody will value the work of a postpartum doula, because a lot of people just don't even know what a postpartum doula is. A lot of it's education about what we do, how we can help, and people are really willing and open to that knowledge, but often they just don't know that that kind of help is available. They know that there's help available for the baby, so they might have a nanny or a maternity nurse or somebody to help with a baby. I always say to them, "I'm not there to look after the baby, you are the baby's mother, but I'm here to look after you." I've had two sets of clients who've got twins, and I think that's a really lovely group to work with, people having multiples, because they really do know that they need a little bit of extra help and so it's such a joy to support them.
Then another group that's quite open to it are people with second or third babies who may not have had a really nice time the first time, and they know that they're going to need help and support afterwards, and they know. I remember one of my clients said to me, she said, "We know that we don't need all the stuff for the baby. The baby's fine, doesn't need lots of stuff. What we need is someone to come and look after us, because we didn't enjoy it the first time, and we really want this time to be different." So those people are really open to our message.
Do you have any feedback from clients that you could share with us? (18:15)
Julia Jones:
And do you have any feedback from clients that you could share with us?
Jo Hogan:
Oh my God, yes. This is just the first text that she sent me. She'd had a really difficult time the first time round and really, really didn't enjoy the postpartum, but she was home after quite a difficult birth with a second baby anyway. She just said to me, "Even though the birth wasn't ideal and the recovery will be interesting, I'm feeling so much more positive about everything this time round. Everybody treated me well and our midwife was great, and I felt so much more involved. Thank you so much for everything you've taught me. I know I wouldn't be coping as well if it wasn't for the knowledge and confidence you've given me, especially all the understanding around the hormones and the instincts, et cetera. This time feels just so much more natural. No timings, no schedules, no writing everything down. It's wonderful. And I'm totally following your advice that there's only two things..." It's your advice actually, "... There's only two things that are important, falling in love with my baby and learning how to breastfeed him. It's all going so well so far. I actually have milk coming this time. I've let everything disappear off my radar and I'm not getting stressed about it. And that's all down to how you've made me feel and frame these next few months in my mind. It's just so liberating. Thank you."
Julia Jones:
That is so beautiful.
Jo Hogan:
Isn't that beautiful? It's just great. So just to get feedback like that has been amazing and just be able to reframe the whole thing for people. What I love about your program so much is that the mixture between the traditional practices and the neuroscience, because I'm a bit of a science geek, and I just love the way that everything is based around neuroscience and how the brain works. Sharing that information is really amazing with women as well, because they really get it, they understand. It gives again, them permission for them to do these things to rest, to snuggle up. I think what I said to her was, just snuggle up naked with your baby for the whole day and don't get out of bed and just enjoy him and don't feed to any schedules. Feed him when he wants to be fed and enjoy this time.Just giving her that permission to do that meant the world to her.
Do you have any advice that you would give to other doulas or people thinking about being doulas? (21:08)
Julia Jones:
Yeah, that is so beautiful. So just to close then, do you have any sort of advice that you would give to other doulas or people thinking about being doulas?
Jo Hogan:
As I said to you, I think earlier when we were off air, I think that there's such a massive need for the service out there. I feel that it's important to really focus on the kind of woman that you want to work with to be really specific about, so specific, and this is kind of marketing speaking in a way, but who is the woman? Where does she live? What suburb does she live in? What car does she drive? What shops does she go to? Where does she hang out? What does she do in her spare time? Find that particular person. What is her problem and how can you help her solve it? Because I think when you do that and you do that work as I have done, you end up working with the woman that you really, really, really love to work with.
Then that goes back to that thing I said to you, it's not like work at all because you're working with somebody so special that you visualized in your mind. You will also feel confident that you know how to solve her issues and problems. Just trust that even the smallest thing that you say or do can make a massive difference in somebody's life. I know in my own case, and anybody who's had a baby will know that the tiniest thing that somebody does, kindness that somebody does, you never forget it. That's such an incredible honor and a privilege to be part of a woman's life around this time. I would highly recommend doing as much as you can to make that business successful because it's hugely needed.
Julia Jones:
It's beautiful. Thank you so much, Jo.
Jo Hogan:
No problem. Thank you so much for having me, and I'll keep in touch and let you know how it's all going.
Julia Jones:
You can find out more about Jo's work as a doula and massage therapist in Auckland New Zealand at bellamama.co.nz
