Podcast - Episode 33 - Creating A Sleep Business
Interview with Katie Cortes
I chat with Newborn Mothers educator Katie Cortes from Katie's Babies, who teaches the module on sleep in our Postpartum Education and Care Professional training. Together we discuss Katie's transition from supporting mothers as a midwife to helping them find peace as a sleep consultant. At the core of this conversation, we explore the importance of adjusting our expectations around newborn sleep and tailoring our approach to the needs of the mother and family.
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About Katie
Katie is a registered midwife and certified infant sleep consultant who believes in coaxing a love of sleep, through attachment, honesty, respect & fun. Katie balances the value of attachment parenting practices, breastfeeding, baby-wearing and co-sleeping, with mindful respect that each family has their own unique aims, challenges and priorities for a good night’s rest. Katie has supported countless families, guiding them through the various stages of achieving better sleep for their babies while gaining confidence in their own happy styles of parenting.
We explore the following questions:
What do you do as a sleep consultant?
Do you feel financially secure now as a small business working with mums?
How did you come to Newborn Mothers Collective? What was it that made you join?
Do you feel like you've found that connection with mothers through sleep support?
Tell me about the actual work you do with babies and newborns?
How does it look when you're working with older babies up to the age of four?
What are your thoughts on sleep routines?
You are getting so many clients now that you are thinking of launching an e-course. Do you want to tell us yes about this?
What do you do to overcome the mental challenges of overcoming big hurdles?
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Transcript
Julia Jones:
Hello and welcome to Newborn Mothers Podcast. Today we are chatting to Katie who has a beautiful sleep consultancy business called Katie's Babies, which is a little bit different than what most people think of when they think of getting help with sleep. Katie is, well, you were a midwife and are for 24 years, I think we just figured out. Also a graduate of Newborn Mothers Collective.
What do you do as a sleep consultant? (01:00)
Katie Cortes:
As you mentioned, I'm a midwife, originated from the UK, moved here 14 years ago or something now, a bit longer than that even. Came over as a midwife. Then I had my family. I've got four children ranging from the ages of 12 down to 8, and the last two are twins. Ironically, they were all kind of fussy sleepers, really liked to breastfeed to sleep, and that's where they liked to stay all night long. But I was in a position that I didn't have to rush back to work, had a supportive partner, so just muddled along. The real irony was that I never would've considered sleep school or sleep consultants back then. So that kind of makes me chuckle now.
Then kind of fast-forward to when, my twins were about, well preschool, three or four, and we went around Australia on a trip and decided that neither of us wanted to be employees anymore. So we came back from our trip around Australia that took 13 months, and I wanted to start up, what I now look back and think was probably postpartum doula work, although at the time I didn't really realize that's what it was, but I wanted to offer postpartum care in the home. It seemed that nobody was really interested in that at the time. There was zero interest.
One of the mums from schools said, ‘Oh, my sister-in-law needs a hand with getting her toddler to sleep’. I thought, ‘Oh, that's not really my area of expertise, but hey, let's give it a go’. Or she wanted some help overnight with her newborn and her toddler, and I said, ‘Look, this on a regular basis is going to cost you lots of money, how about we just teach the toddler to sleep rather than me coming in to help you every fortnight’, which I think is what she wanted. That's where it started. Turned out I was pretty good at it and then just educated myself properly on it all and drew on my midwifery background working with parents.
Julia Jones:
Yeah, it's fascinating. I love that you have this really multifaceted approach because I think that's really where a lot of people feel let down by sleep consultants is they perhaps don't have a really good understanding of breastfeeding, bonding, mental health and all of those kind of things. Whereas your range of experiences both professionally and as a mother, mean that you probably have a much more holistic kind of approach.
Katie Cortes:
Like I mentioned to you earlier today, a lot of what I do centers around the mother, not the baby. So it's always key what mum is thinking. When you're really on the front line with a baby that doesn't want to go to sleep, I'm always looking at the mum more than the baby. Because if she's not coping or it's not okay with her, then that's not the method that we're going to choose and we'll move on to something else.
Julia Jones:
Yeah. Amazing. So you are obviously now mostly a sleep consultant. You're doing a little bit of midwifery, still?
Katie Cortes:
Not really, no, not since April. And it's now what, October?
Julia Jones:
Yeah. Great.
Katie Cortes:
I've been so busy that I've been able to put that on the back burner and I'm really transitioning now between the two. So that's been an uncomfortable transition that you've heard lots about, but I think I'm coming round to it now.
Do you feel financially secure now as a small business working with mums? (04:52)
Julia Jones:
Yeah. I didn't check if it was okay for me to ask this question, but it's the question that everyone always wants to know. Do you feel financially secure now as a small business working with mums?
Katie Cortes:
I do, but I never really know exactly what the months are going to hold. Two months ago was a really great month, and then this month is slow again. Luckily, I managed to put something aside from the busier months just to anticipate holidays and things. But you're never quite sure. So you need to have that sort of safety net there to be able to risk the quiet months. But I always view the quiet months as an opportunity to improve things. fine tune things or change stuff, because when it's busy, it's busy and I get no time.
Julia Jones:
I think that's a really good point, both of those that when you are quiet, then you focus on growing your business. When you do have money coming in, you make sure that you're managing your money sensibly so that you have money for the quieter months too, because it's inevitable. Every business has cash flow problems.
Katie Cortes:
No one's paying me sick leave and no one's paying me annual leave. So you've got to really think about those things.
How did you come to Newborn Mothers Collective? What was it that made you join? (06:09)
Julia Jones:
How did you come to Newborn Weathers Collective? What was it that made you join?
Katie Cortes:
Ah, your fantastic email marketing, I think, Julia.
Julia Jones:
Which I've now taught to you.
Katie Cortes:
Yeah. Well, it just popped up one day and it kept popping up and it kept popping up. Was it videos to begin with? Because I love the video thing. I just love watching people talk and your lovely face kept popping up and telling me, you've got a deep calling to work with women. I was already a sleep consultant then, but I thought, ‘Oh, I need to just get back in touch with what I felt you were saying to me’. In doing your course, that's what it actually did was reconnect me to the basics of midwifery, which is what my dear lecturers taught me back in 1992 about not being judgemental.
Julia Jones:
Yeah. But you felt like you'd lost track of that?
Katie Cortes:
Absolutely. In the hospital system, it's you've got an endless to-do list and you've just got a tick it off. You've got a tick it off and you've got write reams of notes. It kind of felt like I'd lost that real connection for mind, body, all of that, and seeing mum and baby as one rather than two separate patients.
Do you feel like you've found that connection with mothers through sleep support? (07:29)
Julia Jones:
Do you feel like you've found that with a woman kind of connection now that you are doing sleep stuff?
Katie Cortes:
Yeah, more so because there's an end result now. Whereas with midwifery, I'm at work for 8 hours or 10 hours and I leave at the end of the shift not really knowing if I've helped much or if it's all going to be undone again during that shift if someone picks over who doesn't care as much. I don't ever get to know because I won't see those people again. Yeah, so much more job satisfaction now. People will call me months down the track and say, Hey, how you going? Guess what's happening? They'll shoot me through the next issue that needs dealing with or to say they're pregnant again. They've had enough sleep, that little bit of magic.
Julia Jones:
Oh, that's great. You help them get sleep so that they fell pregnant again, and then they can hire you again.
Katie Cortes:
There you go. This is what I say to them when they find that their husbands are the stumbling blocks with hiring. It always seems to be the dads, doesn't it? Women don't really value their needs. They're like, oh, I've just got to ask my husband. So I said, ‘Well, you remind him, happy wife, happy life.’
8:52 - 13:20
Tell me about the actual work you do with babies and newborns. (08:52)
Julia Jones:
Yes. That's great. Tell me about the actual work you do. You work with babies from what age, right from newborns?
Katie Cortes:
Yeah, right from newborns. So with newborns, obviously it's not in a sleep training capacity, it's always about training the parents, just training them to recognize tired signs in babies and how much sleep babies need, what signs to look out for when they're hungry, what signs to look out for when they're tired, overstimulation, all of that kind of stuff. To reassure them that a lot of what they're going through is just normal adaptation period and they've got to get to know each other. Also letting them understand what little hurdles are probably coming their way shortly so they can prepare for those and know what to look out for.
Then from sort of five, six months old, when the babies start to get a bit more cheeky, then we can be a bit more directive in what's expected for that age group. Many people contact me with multiple overnight wakers and babies feeding five or six times overnight. Nutritionally they don't need that. Emotionally, yes, they might. But just kind of giving them a guideline of what's enough and what might be too much for them to deal with. People just give themselves up to their babies entirely.
One mum said to me today, "Well, is it cruel, just not demand feeding overnight." I said, "Well, the only real cruel thing as I see it is if you are a mother who's become disconnected and resentful because you're feeling this baby constantly." So in the day you can't be the mum you want to be. You can't interact, you can't be playful, you can't do all that chit-chatting with them because you're so tired that the babies then don't get the stimulation they need.
Julia Jones:
Yeah, it is a fine balance, isn't it, balancing the needs of the mother against the needs of the baby. Ideally when we had more of a village around us and more people helping with the shared care of that child, it would've been much easier to balance. But at the moment it’s really a juggling act.
Katie Cortes:
Yeah, so many people live miles away and someone has to go to work. So often the dads are the ones that go back and mums are left at home feeling like they've got to do it all and wonderful social media, making them feel like everybody's doing it so much better than they are is a constant battle.
Julia Jones:
Often I think with sleep work, I haven't done a lot of it, but just a little bit, I find it is just about expectations. Often if you can release parents from unrealistic expectations, it's just a weight off their shoulders. They realize that their baby's normal, actually, it's totally fine.
Katie Cortes:
That's right. Some people even get in contact thinking they need to change things when actually when I quiz them on it's all working out fine, but they're comparing themselves to the other mums in mother's groups whose babies are sleeping through.
Julia Jones:
Pressured by their mother-in-law or by their husband.
Katie Cortes:
Yeah, exactly. I say, call me when you've got a problem. I think you're doing great.
Julia Jones:
Yeah, that's great. That's what I love about you too, because the other thing you always check in with before you start working with anyone is their mental health. Because sleep and mental health is just so interrelated, isn't it?
Katie Cortes:
Hugely. Yeah, absolutely. It's often a massive stumbling block when you do feel like you need to make changes with the baby. If you're constantly questioning in your own mind, well, do I really need sleep? I'm being selfish, I don't need sleep, I can manage without a bit of sleep. Well, you can't, it's a basic human need. Yes, you can manage with a bit less of it, but two or three hours a night, something's going to unravel somewhere eventually. It's just giving them permission almost to go, no, you need to put yourself first because what happens if you're sick? What happens if you can't be there for your partner or for your babies? They need you to be okay.
How does it look when you're working with older babies up to the age of four? (13:20)
Julia Jones:
Yes. Tell me how it looks when you're working with older babies because I noticed on your website, your packages go up to the age of four.
Katie Cortes:
Yes. I love it.
Julia Jones:
Bigger babies. Yes.
Katie Cortes:
I love it. It's hilarious because I can go home and leave them there and let them deal with it. But they're so cheeky. They're so cheeky. I think often what happens is the babies grow up and the parents are still viewing them as newborns and thinking that wake up's are purely physiological. While they obviously need something, it's kind of pointing out to them that, you know how we do everything infant led these days, everything's infant led weaning or demand feeding. It's all very much let the baby take the lead. Well, when they get to toddlerhood, all of that changes. It probably changes around 8, 9, 10 months when they just start to really look at you and go, I don't want to do that. I don't want to get a bed like children everywhere all over the world say to their parents.
Katie Cortes:
They'll try everything in their power to avoid it because they're learning all this amazing stuff. Their bodies are working in ways that they never knew they were capable of and they don't have time for sleep. I don't want to go to bed, mum, I've got stuff to do.
Julia Jones:
Have you seen the book, the Adult book Go the F to Sleep?
Katie Cortes:
Oh, yes.
Julia Jones:
They've done now a children's version that has got no swear words in it. Because what they realized was that a lot of children wanted to be in on the joke too, that children found that idea hilarious that they were knowingly tricking their mum and dad.
Katie Cortes:
Oh, really?
Julia Jones:
Getting out of bed a thousand times every night and all these toddlers just thought it was so funny.
Katie Cortes:
Yeah, I bet they would. Well anyway, they're super cheeky and I always say to their mums and dads, ‘Look, if you do nothing else, make it boring. It's got to be bat-shit boring and they'll stop waking up. You don't have to abandon them, you don't have to not go to them. But if you go to them, you make it really boring. If they're staying awake, it's not boring enough.’
Julia Jones:
Yes.
Katie Cortes:
A lot of people are go, ‘Oh, I'll try this, I'll try that. We'll do a bit of this. And if that doesn't work well, I'll call hubby in and he can do a bit of this or that’. That's far too exciting.
Julia Jones:
I love it. So it's very common sense advice.
Katie Cortes:
I think so. I think that's what a lot of people say to me. Not a lot of routines. I don't give out routines contrary to what a lot of people expect because I just remember trying to follow routines when mine were babies and feeling hugely demoralized by 10:00 AM when my child obviously hadn't read the routine and I only wanted to sleep half an hour. So there you go.
What are your thoughts on sleep routines? (16:50)
Julia Jones:
Yeah, I think routines are one of those things that naturally some people love routines and some don't.
Katie Cortes:
Yeah.
Julia Jones:
And you can't choose. Maybe you have a mom and a baby or a dad and a baby who both love routines, go for it. But you can't just can't force it, can you?
Katie Cortes:
No. Often you see people buy online routines and there's this glimmer of hope that this is really going to work. There's nothing wrong with the routine. The routine is fine for a baby that knows how to go to sleep on its own. But if that baby requires a breast or constantly replaced dummy or a feed to go to sleep, it's going to ping awake after one sleep cycle and that's that. Possibly two if you're lucky, two sleep cycles. But there's going to be multiple wakings and they're going to need that sleep association back in place before they can go to sleep. So the routine kind of just becomes useless in that sense.
Julia Jones:
Which is why no matter how many sleep books there are in the world, people still want personalized, customized support from a real human because it's such an individual thing for every family.
Katie Cortes:
Also, what I'll tell one family I think they should do over another will vary dependent on how many children they've got. There's some methods that I know families with three preschoolers, they're not going to have the time to dedicate to standing there and patting little bottoms.
Julia Jones:
Definitely and the idea of having a routine for a third child when you've got a runaround to activities and appointments and things with your older children, it's impossible.
Katie Cortes:
Yeah. So it becomes teaching them about how to make that baby more portable. Yeah, more adaptable, portable baby.
You are getting so many clients now that you are thinking of launching an e-course. Do you want to tell us yes about this? (18:48)
Julia Jones:
That's great. You are getting so many clients now that you are thinking of launching an e-course. Do you want to tell us yes about this?
Katie Cortes:
It's just in the very early stages, but I'm quite excited just to see if I can make it more available to people that live far away from me as well. Even though I do distance help as well on phone and Skype and things. Cost-wise as well, just making it more affordable for people. If I can just condense it all into a course, the main bits that I know, it's going to be more available to everybody and give them a taster as well, before maybe people want that tasted before leaping in at the deep end if that's what they need to do and have a full on personalized consultation. But a lot of cases are very simple to fix, if fix is the right word. They just need the main principles explained.
Julia Jones:
Yes. I find a lot of parents just need their confidence. They need a little bit of reassurance, don't they?
Katie Cortes:
I like the idea of doing it in a group setting so that they can hear what other people are going through as well, because everybody thinks they've got the worst baby in the world. I've lost track of how many times people have asked me, is she the worst one you've ever come across? I go ‘No. Oh god, no.’
Julia Jones:
We just have no idea what normal parenting and normal baby behavior is in our culture, do we? We live in such an unfamily friendly society that yeah, you kind of expect like we were saying earlier, you expect a portable baby so that you can still go to weddings and restaurants and go on the airplane and all of these places, which are incredibly inappropriate situations for babies to be in. Just because they're just not suitable. Babies aren't happy in a lot of those environments. We just don't know what is normal, do we?
Katie Cortes:
No. You don't know what to compare it to. Then by the time you have your third or your fourth, you don't really care what other people do anyway. That's probably why babies are more likely to become portable then because you just kind of say, ‘Oh, whatever happens, we'll deal with it.’
Julia Jones:
Yes. I always make a point of smiling at mums who we've got one toddler having a tantrum. Because I always think when it's you first, it might not be their first, they might have other children, but you can often tell that level of anxiety of a mum with one child who thinks that, ‘Oh my gosh, everyone's looking at me and everyone's judging me’. I always make a point to smile and laugh with them because having three kids, it's just part of being a parent, isn't it? Your kids are going to chuck tantrums in embarrassing places and make a mess in embarrassing places. There's times, my kids, when they've been toilet training, for example, have just weed on the floor somewhere really inappropriate. In fact, I was at Parliament House the other day at a climate protest and my toddler just pulled his willy out and just wee'd.
Katie Cortes:
Oh, great.
Julia Jones:
At Parliament House. I was like, ‘Oh my God, they can always kick me out of here.’
Katie Cortes:
Is that a peaceful protest? I'm not sure.
Julia Jones:
I did not teach him to do that, I promise.
Katie Cortes:
He's just feeding the grass. He's giving the grass a little drink, that's all.
Julia Jones:
Yes, exactly. He just knew those trees looked like they needed a bit of water.
Katie Cortes:
Oh, look. I still have a friend who's got seven children and she always says, I love it when other people's kids are having a tantrum. I just love it because it makes mine look good. So you've got to think that as well. If your kid's having a tantrum, you're making someone feel a bit better about this.
What do you do to overcome the mental challenges of overcoming big hurdles? (22:43)
Julia Jones:
Yes. That's great. One more thing I want to ask you before we wrap up. I know you've had your fair share of challenges and things, but I know especially you've had two sort of challenges that we've talked about a lot. One of them is your transition out of that midwifery and actually finally letting that career go. And the other one is transitioning into the online space and creating e-courses.
Katie Cortes:
I know.
Julia Jones:
They're both really big hurdles. What do you do to overcome these mental challenges?
Katie Cortes:
Oh look, much as you know, I'd love to just bail out and hire the VA to do all my tech stuff, I like to know how it works. It frustrates me that I don't know enough about technology, so I just battle away, slowly chip away and get it done. You said to me, ‘You've just got to get in there and do it’. Because I'm not willing to hand over that control yet.
If it's just legwork, but I understand it, yes, I'm happy to hand that over then. Understand it first. So as far as technology goes, I'm just going to keep plugging away till I understand it. I did some coding today. I don't know how I managed that, but anyway.
Julia Jones:
Ooh, that's clever.
Katie Cortes:
I embedded something in my website.
Julia Jones:
Well done. So it's just pure determination. You think it's just a matter of just putting one foot in front of the other.
Katie Cortes:
And Googling a lot. But I can getting that. Email marketing was a huge hurdle for me, and I remember saying to youo many a time, ‘Oh, I just don't know how to do it’. You're like, ‘You just do it, get on and play’. So that's what I did.
Then yes, moving away from midwifery, I think because I started my training when I was 18, so I've been part of that institution for so long that I felt like I needed someone to go, ‘Sure, Katie, off you go and go and pursue what you want to do’. I needed permission to go off and do that. But I thought, ‘Well, no one's going to give me permission. I've just got to take that leap of faith and see what's there’.
Julia Jones:
Although you did have a couple of discussions in our membership groups, didn't you, with the other graduates. There was definitely some other people who said, ‘Oh, it's been a weight off my shoulders, I feel so free now I’ve let go of that.’
Katie Cortes:
Yeah, the same. I think in the same week as well, I hooked up with a friend who's a GP and lactation consultant, and she's just stepped away. She said, "I burned out, I want to go into life coaching." I'm like, ‘What?’
Julia Jones:
Oh, wow.
Katie Cortes:
She stepped away from general practice to become a life coach and a meditation practitioner. So she said, "If you’re not being authentic to yourself. What good are you to anybody?" So I kind of went, ‘Oh! If she can do that then I think I can’. And she'd got no job to go to. So I've got a job, I've got a following, and I've got clients and I've got an income. So what are you struggling with?
Julia Jones:
Yes. Well, it's that shift of identity, isn't it? If it's something you've really been doing your whole life and being a midwife, it is really a calling. A lot of midwives love their jobs, but some of them do really suffer in this system. They find they can't be midwives in the current system we have. I can understand that's a lot to process.
Katie Cortes:
Yeah. The joy had gone out of it in the way that I was practicing. I think because I'd always worked casually since coming to Australia. I never got a full-time post in a permanent place, so I was always kind of moving from one hospital to another, which I'm sure contributed to that. It just meant that I was always filling in for people and taking up the slack. I was never going to form good relationships in that sense. But with a young family, that's all I could really afford to do. I couldn't afford to give away regular slots in my time.
Julia Jones:
So if people want to learn more about you, if there's any mums listening, for example, who are, ‘Katie sounds like she could help me’. Or if there's any professionals listening who are like, oh, ‘I have so many clients who need help with sleep’. Everyone can find you at katiesbabies.com.au. I'll make sure I put that link up in the show notes.
Katie Cortes:
Thank you.
Julia Jones:
And you have a free ebook and you do some online work as well as local work on the Mornington Peninsula in Victoria.
Katie Cortes:
Yeah, that's right. I've just recently had a client over in the UK. There's a lot of distance clients as well. If I feel like it's something I can't handle over the phone, then I'll be honest and say, ‘Look, I really feel like you need to find a sleep consultant closer to you.’ But more sort of typical issues that I see more frequently than say, ‘Yeah, let's give it a go’. My follow-up is ongoing. So it's not like people have a time limit to see success in. I think a few others have a limit of two or three weeks or a month. Some people take longer than others. Some people take a few days, others take a couple of months.
Julia Jones:
Yes. So it's very reassuring for mums to know that you'll see it through with them.
Katie Cortes:
Also, one client said that over the phone, they can do things at their own pace. They can just take some time to absorb the information and just implement different things one at a time. So that works well.
Julia Jones:
Oh, that's fabulous, Katie.
Katie Cortes:
I've got the ebook as well for anybody who is thinking that they want to go down the route of altering sleep routines for their babies, but just need to get their thoughts aligned with the aims that they feel they've got. So really wanting the change and making sure that they want it enough and life is convenient enough at the moment to devote the time and energy to it that they need to.
Julia Jones:
I love that because you have this really authentic way of selling, Katie, where you really check in with things like people's mental health, with their expectations, with their determination to make changes. Because I feel like there are some sleep consultants and books out there who kind of trick people into thinking that they need to do sleep training and then they can sell them their stuff. But you're absolutely the opposite. You spend quite a lot of time making sure that this is the right decision for families before they hire you.
Katie Cortes:
Well, that's right. I don't want any unhappy clients and I want success stories, so I need to know that there's no alternative. Do you need a cleaner? Do you need a babysitter? Do you need a child minder? Do you need any of those? Because this isn't the easy option, and it's going to take dedication and commitment. It's not a quick fix. I'm not going to come to your house and fix your baby.
Julia Jones:
No, it's not going to be like your baby will be sleeping from seven till seven in three nights kind of a thing.
Katie Cortes:
No, and I'm always going to post the testimonials of people that go, ‘Oh my God, she changed my life in 24 hours’. But that's mostly not the case.
Julia Jones:
No, that's right. Because babies are human beings.
Katie Cortes:
Yes, they are indeed.
Julia Jones:
Good. Thank you so much, Katie. It's been really awesome to chat.
Katie Cortes:
Thank you for having me.
Julia Jones:
Good. Everyone can check out katiesbabies.com.au and download the free ebook and maybe book an online support or local support package if you live in the Mornington Peninsula. See you later, Katie.
Katie Cortes:
Thank you. Bye.
